Agreed 100%

What’s wrong with cheering for Scotland? (Apart from the fact that they got the shit kicked out of them by Norway today).

Nothing wrong for cheering for Scotland if you’re Scottish but you should root for the States if you’re American. That’s all.

I’m kinda surprised an FCD MLS cup wasn’t in your list of wishes. But I guess it’s probably too much to ask for

I watched the game in my office with two hispanic-americans that report to me. One cheered for the United States and the other Mexico. The entire game the one cheering for the US was giving the other an incredible amount of sh*t about cheering against his country. Having lived in CA and TX, it really didn’t surprise me. All the La Raza talking points about immigrants loving America first is total nonsense. Hell, we see that every USMNT game in the USA.

it’s just a little further down.

I couldn’t disagree more. If you moved to Houston, would you cheer for the Dynamo? I’m sure you wouldn’t. And if you didn’t, would that make you somehow less of a Houstonian? Ridiculous.

Also, I guess housekeeping, construction and groundskeeping aren’t the only jobs that immigrants and their families are willing to take.

Hey, sometimes the kid goes the way dad goes, and if dad is Mexican-born, well… there ya go.

Checkmate.

Analogies of MLS team support are not valid with National team support. Immigrants to the USA come here because USA offers them something they cannot get in the country of their birth – jobs, freedom, etc. If I moved to Houston, the Dynahoes wouldn’t give me a thing I don’t already have.

i agree, BUT the broadcast was from Telemundo, so what would you expect them to show? Even if it was transmitted in English SAP.

Club support — especially in the MLS where it’s city-based — is completely analogous. People move cities for myriad reasons: job opportunities, better schools, affordable housing, better quality of life. In other words, the exact same reasons why someone immigrates to a different country. Should FC Dallas fans switch their club allegiance because they move to a different zip code? Of course not. The mere suggestion is laughable.

It’s great that you don’t cheer for Scotland, Buzz. But, then again, I’m assuming you’re probably at least a second-generation American. You didn’t grow up living and dying with the Scottish National Team. It wasn’t the first team you supported or your father supported or his father supported. It’s not that one point of pride you clung to, no matter how bad things got. It’s not a part of you.

Your blog post, at its audacious core, questions the soldiers’ dedication to the United States. Were their oaths to protect the U.S. Constitution not effusive enough? Their willingness to give their lives in the country’s defense didn’t sufficiently express their affection for America?

Soccer is a game, not a referendum on patriotism.

I dont care if you move here and support your home national team, thats fine. But those AMERICAN soldiers, at least the ones i saw, were using the country of Mexico’s flag, not the actual team’s. Supporting a soccer team and a country are different. And for a USA soldier to fly the colors of any country but their own is disgusting.

What Ryan just said. (And Buzz, too.)

They are stepping up to fight for the United States, so I give them a huge helping of respect and gratitude no matter what soccer team they cheer for. Having said that, the irony of the video image was that there were soldiers wearing one country’s flag (allegience) on their uniform, yet waving another country’s flag in celebration of that country’s action that just caused “harm” to the country who’s flag is on their uniform — whom they have sworn an oath to protect. It was certainly a strange image to digest and an odd intersection of allegiences to witness.

Let’s carry forward with the city change argument.

Let’s say I’m a Dallas Cowboys fan, easy to do since I am.

Now let’s say I and everyone else in the city is watching a game on TV in which the Cowboys are playing on the road against the hated Eagles of Philly.

Let’s say in this hypothetical game the broadcast does a cut-in back to Dallas where some Dallas City Police have gotten together to watch the game.

And then what if, in this hypothetical example, the Dallas City cops all turn out to have their faces painted in Eagles green and their waiving Philly Eagles Flags.

Forget annoyed, I’d be freaking livid. I’d actually be madder than I am about this Army-Mexico thing which only kinds bugs me cause I kinda want people to cheer for the country of which they are a citizen.

Which, by the way, I am free to do. Just as people are free to argue with me about it.

Until US fans get passionate about our nat team we have no reason to complain about Mex support. If we played a mex/us game in the US and only sold tickets to US fans we couldn’t fill half a stadium, so as a country it’s hard to complain. I tend to admire their passion and wonder why/when the us fan will be so involved. 99% of the Mex/Amer. knew there was a big game yesterday, I’m guessing that 96% of the other Americans couldn’t name 1 player on the US team and have no idea what soccer is. They’d rather talk about drug use in Baseball or TO’s antics. So until we get more mainstream support I just envy those fans of the countries that take the game to heart.

ps- I’ll support any guy that wants to put his life on the line for me – he can cheer for Azerbajan for all I care! (is that how you spell it?)

Migratory populations are a funny thing, and sometimes rooting for a sports team is a way of apologizing to the place you left, a way to soften the blow of — figuratively — telling the place you grew up or your parents grew up that, for some reason, it wasn’t good enough for you.

Those boys weren’t willing to live for Mexico, but they are willing to die for America. It probably makes their grannies in Guanajuato happy to see them rooting for the Mexican national team, and it doesn’t hurt America in any way that’s the least bit meaningful in the grand scheme of things.

Hell, I love Texas way more than I do Jacksonville, Florida, but I love the Jaguars way more than I do the Cowboys, and that wouldn’t have changed if I’d joined the Dallas PD. If I were on a TV feed for a Jacksonville-Dallas Super Bowl, I don’t think I could pretend not to be excited for the Jags, even though I’d never move back to Jacksonville.

Not all members of the US military have American citizenship.

One day they are going to make the “Team America” anthem our national anthem. Do the supporters groups sing that song at nats games? If they don’t, they should.

Some of the comments that these particular soldiers have “stepped up to fight for America” is using the same logic that would apply to a day laborer immigrant is “stepping up” to do anything he/she decides to do for money.

Without allowing generalizations or patriotic emotions to get in the way of objectivity, the truth is that some of these soldiers are serious American patriots who happen to be rooting for Mexico, and some of them are simply mercenaries who joined the Army for the $$$. Lumping large groups of people into convenient categories might make it easy on your brain, but it is a gross distortion of the truth.

Buzz is being honest about his personal reaction, and I certainly can and do empathize with his reaction…I also find it distasteful that there is such a lack of assimilation into American culture by so many Mexican immigrants, even those who are 2nd generation.

We do have to be careful about using soccer (futbol) as a litmus test. Of all the soccer fanatics in the US Army, what percentage of them are Caucasian or African American? Probably 2%. 3%? The other 97+% of soccer fanatics in the armed forces are probably Hispanic, and many of them are going to resonate with the Mexican game. Many of those players are not Mexican league teams that they continue to follow, just as I would continue to follow FC Dallas if I were living in a new country. I would probably continue to root for the USMNT in the world cup as well.

That being said, if I moved to say…England, and were serving in the Royal Air Force, I would never demonstrate the rather insulting behavior of waving an American flag around, even if I were rooting for the USA to win a game. I think that is what Buzz is saying, and I concur 100% with him on that.

Some excellent points made by Stacy, pony2, cowtown and Robert so I won’t reiterate them.
I do have to caution against this from Ed:
“Immigrants to the USA come here because USA offers them something they cannot get in the country of their birth – jobs, freedom, etc.”
I moved to the US over 10 years ago and it certainly wasn’t for a job or freedom. I’m not saying that those reasons aren’t primary for some people but it’s as broad a generalization as I can think of to assume that it is true of every immigrant. Even if they are the reason, does that mean you should renounce everything about the country you are leaving?

I came to the US because that is where the love of my life lived and wanted to continue to go to school. Freedom and jobs didn’t even come into it. I’ve been here living happily in Texas ever since and am father to two wonderful little Texan citizens. I will probably become a US citizen myself before too long.
I’ve joined about 200 of Sam’s Army and sang my arse of for the US in the midst of 40,000 Mexcian fans in the Cotton Bowl. I’ve gone to bars to cheer for the US at 1:30, 3 & 5:30am in the World Cup. However I will never cheer for the US over Scotland – ever.

As many Infernites know I’ve dedicated more than my share of blood, sweat and tears to the Burn/FC Dallas cause but should FCD ever come up against Liverpool there is no doubt whatsoever where my allegiance will lie and it will not be in hoops.

In my opinion the cause of your allegiance to a club or national team can be complex. For me I chose to support Scotland rather than England because I was born there and grew up there and felt intensely Scottish to my core. You can’t change that no matter where you move or how much you assimilate. My parents were English so I could have chosen to support the (only slightly) more succesful England team but it just wasn’t how I felt.

I chose Liverpool because:
a) They had the best ever Scottish player and 2 of the best ever Scottish defenders.
b) They were on tv so I could see them play.
c) Living in Rugby-land there was no professional team I could watch live.
d) Damn they were good.

The important thing to me is that you can’t change your allegiance once it is chosen.

One final comment. Having lived in England and the US there are some similarities which actually make supporting their national teams more difficult to stomach.
In England the media and many fans are so obnoxiously arrogant that it really makes you want to root against them. Having English family and friends and wanting guys like Stevie G to succeed makes me root for them in a subdued way but I can totally understand why the average Scotsman’s 2nd team is whoever is playing England.
For different reasons I feel that many people just cannot root for the US. Part of it is the dismissive nature that the US as a whole has to soccer (unless they are winning), part of it is probably jealousy that the US is as successful as it is despite not really placing any priority on the game and part of it is probably that really obnoxious, neanderthal-like U-S-A chant

I realize that the cutaway was quite ironic and I’m sure the Telemundo team thought themselves quite clever but it means nothing. I don’t hold anything against those guys for a second and wish them all the luck in the world.

SDFU ITS SOCCER WHO GIVES A S**T WHO YOU ROOT FOR ITS A F**KING GAME RETARDS

Wow, Robert, You warn against generalizations and lumping large groups into convenient categories then blast the lack of assimilation “by so many Mexican immigrants.” Hmmm….hypocritical much?

Clearly no one knows why any of the soldiers involved in the cutaway joined the Army. But what we do know is that they all took an oath to defend the country and its constitution, whether for money, love of country, a quick path to citizenship or a free education. And that decision, regardless of motive, meant they might have to give their lives to such a defense. Is there any greater expression of assimilation?

If they’re willing to make that sacrifice — which strikes at the very heart of the American spirit — then I’ll forgive them this tiny, insignificant link to their homeland. Cheer away, boys.

As for the Royal Air Force, the United Kingdom has several different national teams — Buzz’s beloved Scotland, for instance — and they seem to manage their disparate loyalties just fine.

Actually Jonno, you just proved Ed’s point – you moved here for something you were not able to get in your birth country – the love of your life. You see America really is the land of opportunity.

Re: jonesing

“And for a USA soldier to fly the colors of any country but their own is disgusting.”

I’m sorry… what country is this?

That is a U.S. soldier in Iraq, but it may not even be a U.S. citizen. What’s wrong with you? Did I mention that was a U.S. soldier in Iraq?

say what you want but it was down right rude and personally, offputting, to see them wave a mexican flag and root against their countries team and flaunt it on national t.v. ( i don’t care if they aren’t yet citizens or not..many join to speed up the citizenship process)..i think it does say someting about loyalty…but being we are americans i respect your freedom to disagree with me. peace out

What she said:

“# Comment by Stacy on August 13, 2009 12:12 PM

“Wow, Robert, You warn against generalizations and lumping large groups into convenient categories then blast the lack of assimilation “by so many Mexican immigrants.” Hmmm….hypocritical much?

“Clearly no one knows why any of the soldiers involved in the cutaway joined the Army. But what we do know is that they all took an oath to defend the country and its constitution, whether for money, love of country, a quick path to citizenship or a free education. And that decision, regardless of motive, meant they might have to give their lives to such a defense. Is there any greater expression of assimilation?

“If they’re willing to make that sacrifice — which strikes at the very heart of the American spirit — then I’ll forgive them this tiny, insignificant link to their homeland. Cheer away, boys.

“As for the Royal Air Force, the United Kingdom has several different national teams — Buzz’s beloved Scotland, for instance — and they seem to manage their disparate loyalties just fine.”

You are touchy Stacy, I am just stating an obvious fact to anyone with their eyes open.

My only point in the above post was that some Mexican soldiers waving the Mexican flag are simply soccer fans, but some are probably hypocrite mercenaries wearing the uniform of our Armed Services.

As far as assimilation is concerned, consider the hundred of thousands who live in the states for 10, 15, 20 years but still do not speak English!? I dealt with this in my line of work, it was not easy to see so many promising, wonderful people who still struggle to assimilate, and it prevents upward career potential with the company….and THEN when I find out they are 2nd generation in the US I want to blow a gasket!! It can be very heartbreaking to watch this happen.

So, you can toss bombs at me all you want and act high and mighty Stacy, but this is a real problem, and not a hypocrisy to point out a simple fact. So many immigrants are here only for the short term money and not to become American citizens, often based on a lack of belief that they could do much else in life but what they are currently doing. It is, I am sorry to say, a third world mentality. American big business feeds this mindset to gain the cheap labor, which is the driving force behind our illegal immigration problem.

I suppose I could also mention another troublesome fact, that statistically, Mexican immigrants have children (often multiple children) way too young in their life, and that puts the kids at risk for poor health along with all the other risks associated with growing up in abject poverty, but no….I won’t go there, because I would probably be name called for stating that fact as well.

Re: Buzz’s Cowboys vs Eagles example: thanks for proving my point.

Sure, you say you’d be “livid” to see Dallas cops cheering for the Eagles (I don’t think they’d be in face paint while in uniform in any case, we can leave that ridiculous part out).

But think of it from your own standpoint. Suppose you were transferred with your job to Philadelphia. Or that you moved there, and got a job on their police force. Are you honestly going to try and claim that you would cheer for the “hated” Eagles then? Give me a break.

But what if your watching of the game were itself televised, and could be “cut in” on during the broadcast? Of course you still wouldn’t cheer for them. Could you maybe be able to just keep quiet and be an impartial spectator? I doubt that, too.

Come to think of it, I bet a lot of people might amp up their support of the “other” team (the Cowboys in this example), just to have a bit of fun tweaking their coworkers.

Chris, you don’t know me very well, AMPing up my support to rub it in the face of co-workers is exactly what I would NOT do. I consider it rude.

But if I were transfered and did do something like cheer for the Cowboys while living in Philly. I damn well would expect Philly people to be pissed about it. Clearly you do as well given you think most people would do it on purpose to “rub their faces in it.” You in fact expect them to be pissed.

So thank you for making my exact point.

If this was Mexico vs anyone else I would have 0 problem with it but since these soldiers represent the USA, fight for the USA, get paid by the USA, and so on they shouldn’t be hoping for the USA to lose at anything. Its the country they are fighting for what if for some reason the USA fights Mexico? Are they suddenly going to point their guns at the USA?